“The notion that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that his death
constitutes a successful propitiation of a “loving” God
is a direct and undisguised inheritance of the scapegoating barbarism
that has plagued bewildered people throughout history.
Viewed in a modern context, it is an idea at once
so depraved and fantastical that it is hard
to know where to begin to criticize it.”
– Sam Harris, The Sacrifice of Reason
In the modern context of a man being crucified for the wrongdoings of others, certainly the act is barbaric. Though the trinity does not at all fit our mathematical consistencies (it is indeed three in one, or A and not A), what Jesus did on the cross is not meant to be looked at as anything other than God Himself enduring the pain that humans deserve. Which brings about the question if Jesus is God why does he pray? Good food for thought..
It is a complicated subject: the trinity. Even I, as a Christian, have no answer for how to break it down into perfect sense. And no theologian ever will. I hold onto the idea that if God is real, should He really fit into our mathematical explanations? Could He be broken down like that? This is God we’re talking about. While He can be conceived, can He be bottled? Or just explored? Once again..good food for thought.
At the end of the day, all creation theories and afterlife ponderings put aside, I look at Jesus as the ultimate underdog. He became poverty, stood up for the oppressed, lived and ate with those who were considered the scum of the earth, told people to selflessly love their enemies, and trampled upon the philosophy of those who legislated injustice. I cannot help but want to follow that.
However, atheists such as Sam Harris, George H. Smith, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens all have very strong arguments that I think every theist should challenge themselves with.
I find it unfortunate for Christianity that the majority of us have no problem filling the pews, but find little time to go to the library.
Be well…
“Could He be broken down like that? This is God we’re talking about. While He can be conceived, can He be bottled? Or just explored?”
If he can’t be explored then he can truly never be known, and then proves to be of no value to my life or have no impact on my choices…
“At the end of the day, all creation theories and afterlife ponderings put aside, I look at Jesus as the ultimate underdog. He became poverty, stood up for the oppressed, lived and ate with those who were considered the scum of the earth, told people to selflessly love their enemies, and trampled upon the philosophy of those who legislated injustice. I cannot help but want to follow that.”
But what of the other’s before or after Jesus that had similar intentions, Buddha and Gandhi for instance, why is it that you have chosen to take the doctrine of Jesus to heart and accept that…
I Believe that Crass, Thomas Jefferson, Karl Marx, Charles Darwin, Bobby Seale , Ian Mackaye, and many others have had great messages but that doesn’t mean I accept the canon of their writings or teachings as irrefutable truths to live and die by, I am capable of choosing what makes senses for me and my community, which verses like 1 Timothy 2:12 (“But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” or the King James Version “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” ) seem to run counter to my idea of the what a champion of the rabble would sound like…
I know Jesus didn’t say this but rather Timothy in his letter outlining rules governing the young Christian church, but if “God”, Jesus, or “The Holy Ghost” is not capable of composing a book that timeless in meaning and clear in intention, then he is not truly all powerful…
and again not worth my time.
I truly appreciate thoughtful and honest responses to the posts I make here, so thanks for taking the time to do that!
“If he can’t be explored then he can truly never be known, and then proves to be of no value to my life or have no impact on my choices…”
You make a valid point. My intentions for the question about exploring God were actually to counteract the idea that He can’t be “bottled.” I do believe that God can be explored, but certainly not bottled anymore than the infinite reaches of space above our heads. When the context of scripture (which is the message if you ask me) is taken into account, God is a very interesting thing to explore. So much of what is immediately read in the Bible makes a great deal more sense when paired with the original Greek and Hebrew words as well as the place in time that things were said. It is an interesting excursion for sure and in the words of Brian McLaren, great humanitarian and author of the book A Generous Orthodoxy, when Christianity is lived out as it was meant to in this life on earth, “everyone wins.” In regards to the quotation of Timothy, there are plenty of strong arguments against the idea the he was being a chauvinist in those lines. So much so that many women have made strong arguments and won their position as ministers in churches. I, personally, do not at all see a problem with that.
As far as other figures of the past that have done great things, I tend to agree with you that there have been many, but the greatest difference being that none of them claimed to be the son of God. I suppose that is why I choose Jesus to follow so wholeheartedly. Although I adore Minor Threat and all of Ian MacKaye’s projects, he certainly never did anything that impacted history as much as Christ has. Gandhi was an advocate of Christ’s teachings and way of life and incorporated them into his philosophy. Even one of the greatest movements in history, the Civil Rights Movement, was inspired and championed with a Bible in the hands of those who wanted justice.
Have you read Greg Graffin and Preston Jones book of dialog called Is Belief in God Good, Bad, or Irrelevant? It is an incredibly interesting book composed of their emails to one another regarding science, religion, naturalism, and Christianity. Graffin being the atheist and Jones being the theist, they have a remarkable and friendly exchange of ideas that are worth everyones time.
I enjoy the discussion always! Thanks for taking the time to respond..
“If he can’t be explored then he can truly never be known, and then proves to be of no value to my life or have no impact on my choices…”
jawk, gods only exist as fabrications of man, like racism or the djia; it doesn’t make sense for you to post as though a god is a sentient entity.
when you say things like ‘he’ when referring to a god, you lend creedence to the charade.
may i quickly point out two things here:
1. making the statement that “one of the greatest moments in history” was undertaken with bible in hands opens you up to the counter arguement that many of the most nefarious moments in human history have also taken place under the watchful eye of spiritual text (bible, koran, torah, joy of sex, etc.)
2. there’s a pretty good arguement to be made that jesus christ is a fictional character, while the more contemporary figures mentioned above have been proven mortal, and thereby fallable. i personally don’t believe that person ever existed, but instead is the central figure in the world’s most pervasive parable. in fact, i would go so far as to say that the entire bible was most likely not the work of the multiple authors it is attributed to, but penned later in history by those wishing to tell a story based (very) loosely on historical fact, but mostly grounded in the morality plays dreamt up by farmers looking for some reason to the unrpredictable acts of nature.
oh, and a third point…
3. crass? seriously jeff?
“oh, and a third point…
3. crass? seriously jeff?”
Well I could of said S.O.D. or Warzone but I just didn’t think it fit…
Oh and here is a video of Greg Graffin talking about his PHD.
Taken from Greg’s PHD site, polypterus.com
are you fucking kidding me?
“Fight war, not wars.
Fight war, not wars.
Fight war, not wars.
Fight war, not wars.
Fight war, not wars.
Fight war, not wars.
Fight war, not wars.
etc….”
brilliant.